I am all for unique strong monsters that bring something new to the table.
But there is a fine line between unique and desirable, and completely over the top overpowered and broken.

VIPs had the bulwark trait going for them, but their skills and stats were comparable to other non VIP monsters.

Zyla is comparable to Voltaik. Hiroim to Atum and Brontes with some Ouros thrown in. Kaih isn't that superior to Shallinar or Darmith, etc...

But these nemesis seem to be getting more and more op. A few months from now when those with big pockets have them and they are thrown vs our monsters in wars, we won't have a shot.

Then what? something even more op than nemesis will come?

reading about Warthak's on Taringa:

"Warthak has an exclusive trait that makes him Immune to Stun and Possession. He can deal very high damage and apply effects that deal damage over time. He has acquired a skill that allows him to give all his allies Shields, Precision, Damage Boost and Immunity to Stun. Yes, all in one move! Even with no stamina, Warthak can keep going and give himself stamina regeneration and an extra turn, so he makes sure he can hit!"

So, he is stun and possession immune, meaning even Baba Yaga who is very recent and who finally brought new denial to earth monsters, becomes useless against him.

Even stamina drains won't work against him because again the 0 cd stamina regeneration WITH EXTRA TURN. come on.

so you can only freeze him? (wild guess I bet he has a skill that gives freeze immunity :P)

so, can we like tone it down a bit with the nemesis?
high stats, and over the top skills (With no stamina requirement -_-) , and 2 in one trait, all that in one monster is really overkill. At least VIPS were balanced.

What's next? a monster with a skill that has 100% accuracy and does instant kill to all opponents?

I have seen this happen to other games, new op monsters that make every previous character obsolete and non desirable, this always breaks the game balance, it's like reaching the peak, there is no way to go then but downhill.

I am already thinking why I am doing the race, if this monster will stomp Burotgor I was considering buying Baba yaga, now I see she will be useless.

Please don't make the nemesis too overpowered.

@Sam Its an arms race at the top I imagine. Top level teams and players are all probably loaded with 100+ level Voltaiks and Zylas, what can beat them. So they release Tesaday to deal with Voltaik. The next monster always has to better in some way or why would you want him? That's not my thinking, but at the top it is probably different. If I have Voltaik, why would I want a Voltaik wannabe? If I have Zyla why would I want a Zyla wannabe. It strikes me that SP will ALWAYS be under pressure by some players to release more and more powerful monsters. What they should do is make them subtly more powerful. I though the weapon addition of the Nemesis monsters was a neat idea. Overall I am not horrified by the ones I have run into, but I also haven't run into any ranked ones or ones with kickbutt runes.

I'll take taringa's description with a grain of salt, since there have been times where the website has been inaccurate on specifics.

With that said, SP usually tries to be consistent with traits when it comes to making a "monster caste". We've seen them be consistent with VIPs and the generals. The one anomaly was with the pets, nishant's pet did get the oddball possession immune trait while the pets kept their standard bulwark. It would be odd for them to release a nemesis that doesn't have immunity + super attuned, but not impossible.

In terms of the quality of nemesis, the ones i've gone up against didnt seem that unfair on the defensive end. Hydratila is susceptible to stun, in which older monsters like cavenfish, varuna, and Anton Acorne all have. Thety's sea horse is another option that's relatively cheap considering the price hike on WCs prices. And a few of the newer waters have possession in their denial arsenal. As for lucifire, she is bit trickier to deal with if the war was very limited in denial options, but its the older fire monsters that fare well against her because they have a stun, Greedy, megaosteum and dracontium. But in terms of her dmg, yes her 75 pt water attack means it gets a 50% boost on other fires, which means its a 112 pt skill vs fire. But shallinar isnt that far off in terms of dmg, when you consider her using her +turn buff and flame tackle 45 dmg + burn= 90 dmg + burn.

If nemesis monsters are continued to be released with the consistent trait seen from the previous two, then this new earth nemesis does not seem that hard to counter with the current roster of earth monsters. Brontes/hiriom with mega stun, lui calibre with his taunt+mirror mirror skill, Pigredo with CD active, and a number of earths that can remove shields.

All in all, the biggest thing going for them are their high stats across the boards and their skills dmg are on the higher end of the damage spectrum. From the two I've fought against, they are very beatable but it does force you play differently than the traditional monsters of that element.

@pvtpyle said in Nemesis are too overpowered,:

With that said, SP usually tries to be consistent with traits when it comes to making a "monster caste". We've seen them be consistent with VIPs and the generals. The one anomaly was with the pets, nishant's pet did get the oddball possession immune trait while the pets kept their standard bulwark. It would be odd for them to release a nemesis that doesn't have immunity + super attuned, but not impossible.

You mean tough, not bulwark. Alces pet is possession immune as well.
The fire nemesis is not super attuned, it's burn and freeze immune.

All in all, the biggest thing going for them are their high stats across the boards and their skills dmg are on the higher end of the damage spectrum. From the two I've fought against, they are very beatable but it does force you play differently than the traditional monsters of that element.

My biggest concern is those 0 stamina moves that give them stamina back.

But you made some good points.

@sam

I must be fighting too many VIPs to start calling tough with bulwark. And yes i forgot to mention alces pet, been a while since hes seen action from my. Also the fire nemesis, have to double check my eyes, I blame too many monsters for my mix up. But yes its freeze immune and burn. Thank you for the proper corrections.

I think the main thing that I came away with after fighting some nemesis and countless VIPs, is nemesis will be more offense oriented for players, it gives them many offensive tools to handle alot of situation. Their trait is the main reason they arent nearly as good as VIPs for defense, always an exploitable weakness with nemesis, you might not have it but all it takes is a few members with that specific denial and you shut down a nemesis base.

Yes seems is a bit strong/ borderline overpowered giving them the options, but by in large for most cases, you really only need 1-2 of those effects per fight. I dont remember the last time i needed stun, freeze immunity and be prolonged long enough that i needed some stamina regen all in one fight.

Nemesis in my opinion, are the "premium" offense monsters, giving you a variety of options in 1 monster. All of a nemesis' effects can usually be found within other monsters of the same element but not all on 1 monster.
While on Vips on defense limited the options for the offense because of the trait. Nemesis opens up offensive options with variety of skills.

One last thing, semi relevant to the topic.

There is a line between broken and overpowered, VIPs are considered overpowered because of that trait, a 15% edge over tough trait, most of the VIP's skill's were in line in terms of dmg/effects with other popular non vips. Same thing with nemesis, they are overpowered due to being the only monsters with all these options, but trait wise, id say the nemesis trait is still inferior to tough. However they are still subject to the rng factor of the game. No Vips(minus zyla) or nemesis(thus far) have actually broken the game, they are simply an improvement on what already existed.

Broken is a whole other thing that i feel needs to be addressed and will probably do a post on it sooner than later. These monster's bypass the mechanics of the game and enable "perfect" offenses. Meaning 0% chance of losing with the proper set up for runes, and there are no defensive answers to them.

The dev's used the term "dominant strategy" with thetys+voltaik offenses. They didnt quite explain why its a "dominant strategy" and who exactly the main problem of that duo.

The way to counter thetys, have impactful ultimates on your defense, or make more super attuned monsters.

Thety's stam devour is overpowered in the sense, you reduce the risk you are exposed to RNG from 10% to 5%. AOE disables are usually 90% but stop the risk of a defense countering with an ultimate. For SD, when that 5% does occur it hits you hard.

Voltaik/zyla on the other hand are broken because of the way they scale in terms of damage. X red gives 102% dmg, X life gives 108%, and with HP being scaled higher as you progress beyond lv 100, it comes to the point when monsters stop OHK each other, the more life runes a defense stacked the larger the gap widened between STR and Life runes.

Both v/z scale with red but breaks the game with stamina, 152% for X rune. They both already can kill any singular monster with just one str or stamina rune, with the synergy of stamina runes + multiple +turns for ultimate procs, that enables them to wipe entire teams no risk. They bypass the RNG factor of missing because their attacks are broken into little chunks and can't be countered on defense. If the opponents decide to go heavier on life runes, the offense can keep up by adding more team stamina. If they decide to go full speed defense, a denial lead voltaik offense can still do lethal dmg with just 1 stamina. The scaling of these two monsters are completely out of line compared to traditional monsters and their damage range.

@Sam Nemesis monsters are garbage for the money and should not be bought.
There is only 1 Nemesis monster worth buying and that's Hydralita the Icebringer. Her 2 other forms suck and you can't ever use them. Hydralita need to be ranked to at least 110 to be useful otherwise her speed and health are too low to give you a chance in wars with ranked up monsters. You also need her to be ranked to get good skills. At 100 the skills are very mediocre.
All other generals do not need a Nemesis as there are already plenty of monsters in the game that can counter them. All the other element nemesis monsters are just strong monsters beginners can buy for an quick advantage.

@testcyp I disagree that the Icebringer is the only Hydratila worth having.

Hydralita the Riftmaker is Earth.

Pangea Breaker is a 65pt Earth single target attack that stuns the enemy team. That is a perfect anti-Voltaik move that the AI will use correctly to target Volt due to the Elemental affinities. With strength runes it will ohk Volt. Without strength runes it will stun Volt unless resisted.

Riftmaker is in Sea, and so can be fielded to counter Thetys, using his zero cost zero cooldown Thetys Page skills, which hit as well as give allies stamina regen (and do other things too), overcoming Stamina Devourers.

Freeze Manager is an aoe freeze that grants allies freeze immunity, countering other Sea Monsters and meaning he has two aoe denials.

Area Unblessed removes positive effects, on 0 CD, countering shield and regen teams and stripping mirrors (like Space Time) and looped damage - together with the 0 CD Thetys Page attacks, countering Timerion.

So he counters Thetys, Voltaik, and Timerion, while still susceptible to stun and possession.

PS You only need to get him to level 105 (120 Elementium) to unlock his Tier 4 moves, then use the Change Skills function to swap in as many Tier 4 skills as you wish - I suggest Pangea Breaker, Freeze Manager, and Thetys Page 32).

@C0ntr1v3d I'm not saying the Nemesis aren't powerful monsters, they are. Just not worth the cash at all. Your money is definitely better spent elsewhere. No general besides Theyts is all powerful enough to warrant buying a nemesis. At levels 100-105 even 110 they don't have enough of a health pool or enough power to be dangerous to a 130 so their value on defense is questionable until they are ranked at least a couple of levels.
I bought icebringer and boltcaster and i'm hard pressed to recommend them to people. I don't see many people or me spending the cash. Say I spend $60 for 2 boltcasters and use 70 elementuim to get it to level 110. I could use $50 to buy the 1700 gem vase and buy 6 eggs of something else when they go on offer. Just sounds hard to justify to me, the icebringer is gonna be the only one i may buy more copies of in the future.

@testcyp I certainly agree I see the case for a Thetys Nemesis - and not for any of the other Generals.

I also see a case for a Nemesis for Voltaik. A level 100 Volt most certainly can wipe a full team of 130s if he gets a go.

And that is why I jumped at Riftmaker. Thetys, Volt and Timerion countered.

Very nice post.
I have a question and a clarification.

Question: What does mean "The RNG Factor"? (Someday we'll talk about the "dominant strategy" ;))

Clarification: Taringa has not the correct descriptions.

Even stamina drains won't work against him because again the 0 cd stamina regeneration WITH EXTRA TURN
This is NOT true
He has other very powerful abilities and trait.

PD: Borderline means something similar at "not very intelligent?"

@Carlos Yeah, he's still good. But... He's weaker than Hydratila and Lucifire. I hope Samael will be as good as they are at least!

PS: Everyone says that his elemental versions are ugly. Please do something about that fat nimbus and the ugly chestplate

Upon release of the Hydralita line, I thought these things were game breaking. Then more of the same for fire, and now earth elements... I fear we'll look back at Hydralita's release as "the day Monster Legends jumped the shark". Unless, of course, they also shift the meta up with less wallet-hungry options.

I'm not holding my breath.

@Carlos said in Nemesis are too overpowered,:

Question: What does mean "The RNG Factor"?

Random Number Generator. Chance.

Warthak just walked in the room and everyone just ran away...

The stats and trait on Warthak are insane. Immune to all forms of normal turn denial (Stun, Freeze, Possession). Will be interesting to see if the "all forms of possession" applies to him.

Hahahaha yeah they are no OP at all :'D my bad.

Burtogor, something we worked on for a week, some teams doing 40+ laps to get him, propably cost more than the nemsis, gets nerfed just like that on a whim and they refuse to change him because if they do then they will look like, God forbid, they listened and caved in !

Having quicksand on him was so game breaking! We couldn't have that.

Hitting hard with single hits and having status effects, suddenly became mutually exclusive! (Kiridar, Barbatos, Shallinar, Greedy dragon, Judgement, Gregorz etc.. all were abnormalities apparently).

Having an extra turn move without debuffing him was so much. Giving him a decent damage boost extra turn, without totally crippling him and making it useless was such a crazy concept!

But let's turn around and give this one 75 and 80 single hits, extra turns, quicksand/ bleeding/ sunburn (unresisted), aoes, and immunity to every single denial one could use against him in earth. With high stats to top it off ^_^

Because logic and balance is too mainstream.

Enjoy your new op toy rich people!
I am gonna sit here with my 105 Atum I have no way to rank now, and my blinded ox with no denial, aoe, status effects.

IF - and it is a big IF - the localside data the wiki scrapes this information from accurately reflects this monster's stats skills and trait, then this monster is OP even though it does cost half a grand to rank him, and should not be released like this. But as has been said again and again and again, the data is not reliable.

Agreed that they are ridiculously strong. I stopped spending money on this game when the first one came out. The inflation is over the top. The new earth nemesis-immune to stun, freeze, and possession. Come on. i refuse to face a nemesis in pvp. Good for those who've bought them I suppose. More power to ya.

this warhak is seriously broken... vips has wonderful trait, but their stats and skills are still comparable to the other l monsters

@C0ntr1v3d said in Nemesis are too overpowered,:

IF - and it is a big IF - the localside data the wiki scrapes this information from accurately reflects this monster's stats skills and trait, then this monster is OP even though it does cost half a grand to rank him, and should not be released like this. But as has been said again and again and again, the data is not reliable.

@SamIAm said in Nemesis are too overpowered,:

Agreed that they are ridiculously strong. I stopped spending money on this game when the first one came out. The inflation is over the top. The new earth nemesis-immune to stun, freeze, and possession. Come on. i refuse to face a nemesis in pvp. Good for those who've bought them I suppose. More power to ya.

@loony123 said in Nemesis are too overpowered,:

this warhak is seriously broken... vips has wonderful trait, but their stats and skills are still comparable to the other l monsters

Doesn't really matter what we think, let's see what @Carlos thinks

Oh look at that. Even more people think he is too much.

1 - Even dough you keep repeating the contrary, we hear and take decisions based on your comments. Maybe is not the decision a particular player may want, but we do.

2 - Actual wiki stats/skills for Warthak are not correct. I expect the wiki to be updated soon with the changes
As an advance, I can tell you he has no extra turn moves, but we are keeping his trait.

3 - VIP / Nemesis monsters are supposed to be exclusive and very powerful monsters.

Meh.. This was happening during the VIP monster launch too (/cry nerf plox). Very few are going to buy enough to bring them to 130. They should be left as "OP" in my opinion..

I think removing the Extra Turn is a bad idea. I was considering buying some, without that I'll pass.

@MarshallTheBeef said in Nemesis are too overpowered,:

Meh.. This was happening during the VIP monster launch too (/cry nerf plox). Very few are going to buy enough to bring them to 130. They should be left as "OP" in my opinion..

Would you feel the same way a year from now?
He already made earth hydratila useless as he is freeze immune. Next one would probably make this one useless. The power creep is real.

I am happy for you Marshall you can get this new toy and all, but look at the bigger picture.
How broken will they be when more and more people have them?

And I remember very well there was no crying about nerfing Vips.
In fact there was calling to buff them. Zyla had no extra turns when she came out, user feedback asked to buff her. Hiroim, Hydrook and Osur have always been criticized of nt being up to par. Valgar is known to have bad stats. So no that's not entirely true. And the change that the VIPs brought is in no way comparable to this.

Of course if I tell you there is a monster with artifact trait, top stats, and an aoe 100% instant death you will be tempted to get it. That doesn't mean it is the right call for the game.

Removing the extra turn is the right call, and he'd still be Op. If it is removed you might pass on buying one. If it is not removed many are tempted to pass on this game. And on buying Baba Yaga, and many other Earth ever again. There has to be a balance.

@MarshallTheBeef said in Nemesis are too overpowered,:

Very few are going to buy enough to bring them to 130. They should be left as "OP" in my opinion..

I dunno, with the changeover to elementium frats, I have a feeling we are going to see a lot of 130 Nemesis monsters soon in the top ranks of teams, with some of that trickling down.

I agree with @Sam too about the VIPs, I wasn't around for the intro for the first half of the VIPs but researched all of them. If anything folks seemed disappointed with them rather than calling for nerfs.

I hope SP is planning out the power creep for the monsters. All games need a gradual power creep to keep interest, but go too fast and you're painted in to a corner and could easily kill the game instead of maintaining it.

LLum , Samael, Xiron, Hydratila are all in 3 books each.
Luci and warhak are only in 2 books each.
Underworld, Mechanical , Undead, Superhero , Family have no nemesis monsters in them.
Currently waiting on the release of Thunder and Metal Nemesis.

@Carlos I personally think nemesis is another part of the game that's causing the game to go downhill. I am absolutely fine with a pay-to-get monsters, but nemesis are just way too OP like Sam said. Take a look at the top PvP players, 99% of them have at least 1 nemesis, with majority of them having a straight PvP attack/ defense team. This makes me wonder what's actually the goal of this game? I thought it is all about strategy but now it is all about "whoever gets relics and nemesis monsters win everything". Two of my best members just left this game because they are sick and tired of having to deal with relics, nemesis and the stacked bugs that never get solved. They are f2p players, and they have been playing this game for 3 years. This game is really going in the direction of pushing all the loyal f2p players away and I just can't hide how disappointed I am with this game

was interesting reading this time capsule. "These monsters are overpowered, they don't break the game" LOL enter Samuel.CRACK